Whole Goat Care

I'm back and need some more help. I promise to give you a big update later, but was hoping someone could help me out.
We thought we had just gotten everything working out with the goats, and weren't having anymore problems. Then October 2nd came. Jewel passed away. She was my very first goat and was atleast 8-9 yrs. old. October 2nd brought about a cold snap, so I think it brought her down quickly since she was older. We figured her age got the best of her.
Then came along October 13th, Nutmeg was acting off, just laying around. Checked her temp it was 94.1 So we put her in a trash bag and in a tub of warm water, and got her temp (after about an hr.) back to 100.0 She was doing good, acting alert still, eating,drinking, pooping, peeing, no problems. So we put her back outside while it was warm out, and she still did fine.
October 14th, Cutie Pie acted very weak, and down. Nothing wrong otherwise. She was still pooping,peeing, drinking, and was eating up til' a few hrs. before her death. She passed away October 15th.
Saturday, the 18th Nutmeg got her temp back down to 97.4. So back to the tub we went. Since then we're letting her stay inside in a playpen at night and during the warm part of the day she gets to go outside in the sun with the other goats, so that she still has their interaction,etc.
She's been fine since we've been doing this, and her temp is staying fine. She eats anything you give her, and is pooping,peeing, and all that good stuff.
We've got 4 others(1 that 's been weaker for about a week, and the other 3 are hitting within the past day or two) that are acting weak, and having some problems getting up. We wormed them all with Ivomec Plus last week. Well, Friday morning the 17th, we got a fecal from Flora (the weakest one), and I'm no pro at it,so couldn't tell anything. We ended up taking a fecal to the vet Monday morning, and the lady who did the fecal said there was fairly high levels of Coccidia. The vet then tried to tell us we needed to buy corid from him. We proceeded to tell him we had gotten it from him years ago for one that had it, and that goat had died from it. He tried to tell us that wasn't so, but since Tator died, we learnt that the signs she was showing was Polio, from the Corid inhibiting her Thiamine levels. He's always had problems with us, because we research things, and he can't stand it if he thinks we're asking him something that is questioning his vetting. He just doesn't know goats. He is a GREAT horse and cow vet (they are the most in the area), but not for goats,llamas,etc. which is what he tries to say he specializes in.
We started Monday evening with the Dimethox 12.5%. We weighed every goat in the barn, and are giving them the medicine based on their own weights. That away there is no guessing.
What I want to know though, is could the Cocci be causing this? Would they be getting down, and then die, without showing any signs of Diarrhea, or anything?
If this couldn't be cocci, what could it be? Could this be White Muscle Disease, or some sort of Vitamin E/Selenium def.? The ones that are weak, are able to walk around, but if they get barely pushed against, will fall down, most commonly on their front knees. Then they'll sit on their front knees for a little, stumble a minute trying to get up, and then they get up.
We're really thinking it maybe the Vit. E/Selenium. What can we give to help this? Besides, Bo-Se as our vet doesn't have that. To know and specialize in goats, he sure doesn't bother carrying anything for them. He is great on basic goat stuff, but nothing else. He's normally very nice, and he wants you to learn all you can when he's treating an animal with something,etc. But he's just not goat knowledgeable. I feel more comfortable asking y'all something like this, because I know I'll get a straight forward answer. Even if you aren't sure, your gonna tell me upfront. Nothing can beat hands on experience.
We have been doing fine the past few months, and now this. I'm sooooo lost again!!
And I'm open for any suggestions.

Can you get a selenium paste from your feed store?

If not check out this

http://www.jefferslivestock.com/ssc/pro ... LN27V3D71A

it is a gel from Jeffers.

Did they say if there were any worm issues? Perhaps Barber Pole?

I know Yvonne can probably shed more light, but this is a start.

The vet said the fecal appeared fine besides the Cocci.

We did give them all Selenium Gel back in August(after we lost Buffy to something unknown), it didn't seem to make much of a difference in any of them, however they were on pasture then. Now all they are getting is hay all day, because we have seeded their pastures and are keeping them off of it till next spring. We can most definately get more of the Gel if it will help. If you think it'd be good to go ahead and dose them all with it again, I'm game to try that too.

Let's see what the other say, but I know I dose my girls when they come off the field, just because the hay does not have the same as fresh.

Mean while, I will see if I can find anything else online.

Thanks so very much Kendra! I greatly appreciate, and look forward to anyone elses responses.

I'm no help, babygirl but I wanted to say that I'm so sorry for the goats you've lost and especially for Jewel.

Thanks a bunch Youngun'!! I greatly appreciate it. I miss her alot, but I still have her daughter here, so it's a little easier being able to be with her. I still feel a part of Jewel.
Ashley is her daughter, and she's the one who had the birthing problems back in December of '06. I was hoping she'd get bred this Spring and have me a lil' Jewel, but she doesn't seem to be taking. Sooooo I may not be able to carry Jewel's line on. I soooo hope I can!

Anyways, Thanks!

Sharon
Lets explore EVERYTHING that you are doing....As this is certain a herd wide problem...
Start with the feed that you are feeding, how often how much....what hay you are feeding how much and how often. Worming and vaccination schedule. Minerals etc...
To answer your question, yes Cocci will do this, but so will alot of other things, like tapeworms. Which might have been missed in the fecal.

Wow. Sure hope you can figure out what's going on with your herd!!

i hope you find out soon. i can not add any more than the others did.

Sharon
Lets explore EVERYTHING that you are doing....As this is certain a herd wide problem...
Start with the feed that you are feeding, how often how much.
We're feeding Dumor Goat Feed, and they get it every other day. About 1 cup per goat.
...what hay you are feeding how much and how often. They have hay to munch on all day and then during the night will typically finish most of it off, so they get it first thing in the morning. They all eat together, so can't tell you how much there getting. We're using Round Bales this year too, so it's not in flakes. But we're rolling it off in big layers and they eat it fine. No problems!Worming and vaccination schedule. Wormings are only if we think they are wormy and need them, because we try to keep things as natural as we can. They just got wormed with Ivomec Plus, and then since Monday have been on Dimethox 12.5% incase they have Cocci like the vet said. Before that they had Cydectin in August or earlier September (would have to pull out my records to double check date). And before that there was nothing else since the Spring that was given. Minerals etc... They have free choice Dumor Pasture Minerals at all times, and free choice Baking Soda at all times. We keep it filled up 24/7. They are never without. As well as having fresh water at all times. We typically give water 3 times a day (right now, while it's cooler).
To answer your question, yes Cocci will do this, but so will alot of other things, like tapeworms. Which might have been missed in the fecal. We feel very helpless and lost. We are really thinking it's possibly the Vit. E def. The only thing is their temperature gets down low, and if we can get their temperature brought back up, then they seem to be fine, as long as they don't get left outside at night. We have 5 in the house right now, and one of those is an adult pygmy, Oddball. We can't really fit anymore in here. We put them out in the day when it's warm, and bring them in at night. If we do this, they are fine. Soooo....I'm open for anything. Thanks to you and everyone else for trying to help my poor self out again. I hate feeling like I'm drowning, and can't figure it out. My siblings and mom, always look to me for the answers, I can't always give them. So I have to come to y'all, because you'll help me out however you can.

Sharon
This is what I think you should do and this is because several people up here have had a similar problem this year, but it is mostly young kids and kids.
Get a bottle of Valbazen and worm them at 1cc per 10 pounds for three days. With a two year drought, parasites "should" not be an issue, because we haven't had any rain. Cocci should not really be an issue either, because we haven't had any rain, which Cocci requires (remember dry heat and sunlight kill coccidia)....Keeping all of this in mind, that only leaves tapeworms. I would continue with the DiMethox 12.5% but remember you have to use a lot of it in order for it to effective.
The full treatment that has worked with the people in our dairy goat club (and mind you this was a trial and error thing this spring and summer with several different breeders) is this
Valbazen 1cc per 10 pounds for three days.
Injectable iron at 1cc per 50 for three days.
Fortified B Complex 4cc per 100 pounds
Probios
Baby electolytes in warm water (you can get powder ones now in single serve packets)
Hay and grain at normal (everybody here switched to medicated feed some used SS Stocker Heifer feed)
Keep them warm and keep food in them. Baby oatmeal is ideal if you have to spoon feed them.

Okay, I wanted to make sure I told you right, so I double checked the records and here's what they've had within the past 3-4 months as far as meds:

July 19th everyone had Valbazen at 1 cc per 10 lbs, but it was only for one day. We dosed this after we lost Buffy (the one y'all helped me out with), incase it was worms that had gotten her down. And because no one was pregnant and we hadn't ever dosed with Valbazen before.
09-19-08 everyone had Cydectin at 1 cc per 22 lbs, for one day.
Then 10-14-08 everyone had the Ivomec Plus I mentioned above, at the dosage I found on the dosage sheet which was 1 cc per 30 lbs, for one day.
Then when we started Monday everyone has had the Dimethox 12.5%. We're using the dosage of 10 ccs per 50 lbs first day, and half that the 2-5 day. We can't get the Dimethox 40% anymore, which I'm not sure if anyone can. How long does the Dimethox 12.5% need to be given? I have 5 days down on my records. Is there a better medicine out there to get rid of the cocci, besides Corid?(which our vet keeps trying to shove down our throats)
If worming them with the Valbazen does not work, is there anything else it could be?
Will the Valbazen get rid of the tapeworms? Or would Panacur/Safeguard or something else have to be used?

All of our stalls and surrounding area around the barn are dry grounds. Although come to think of it, my sister's goats are in a seperate pen adjacent to ours and they spill their water sometimes. Could this be housing the cocci?
The rest of our grounds here are dry as a whistle. We've had good rain the past 2-3 months, but it's not been alot of standing water. It'll rain an inch or two within 2 days or so, and dry out in about 4 or 5 days, ground will get hard again.

Sorry to ask so many questions, but I like to know as much as I can and learn as much as possible, so we can maybe prevent this from happening again and again.

Thanks sooooo much!

With the Dimethox 12.5% you need to give it for 14 days. Nope Dimethox is still the best thing running for Cocci and the 40% should be back on the market after the first of the year.
Cocci just needs warm, humid, MOIST ground. Doesn't have to be standing water, so if you all are getting rain, then you have a chance for Cocci.
According to your records, you have used three different wormers in three months. I am wondering if perhaps you are underestimating the weight of the goats. And pick a wormer and stick with it, don't rotate them, as this will cause the parasites to become resistant to all the wormers that you are using.
Can you explain the Dumor Pasture minerals? are they for goats? do they contain copper?
I don't think Vit E is your problem. It may very will be selenium and in order for the body to process selenium it needs Vit E.
I don't think this is your problem, but I would feed them the grain every day, break it down to 1/2 cup a day, but skipping a day and then giving them grain isn't good for the rumen.
What is the hay mixture you are feeding?

Okay, let's see if I can answer these. I'm hoping will be able to elminate some things.
We'll give the Dimethox for the 14 days. I wanted to make sure we were giving it for the right length of time, and to make sure this was still the most effective.
We will not rotate wormers anymore, since you told me that. What would you recommend as our best bet to use, and how often would you use it??

We weighed the goats and have been giving it according to weight. We typically weigh them twice a year, and will base any wormers off that weight. We weighed everyone 10-20-08, before we gave Dimethox.

The Dumor Pasture Minerals are for Beef Cattle and Goats.
Here's what the label has on it:
Calcium (min.) - 12%
Calcium (max.) - 14.40%
Phosphorus (min.) - 12%
Salt (min.) - 11.75%
Salt (max.) - 14%
Sodium (min.) - 5.40%
Sodium (max.) - 6.50%
Magnesium (min.) - 1.20%
Potassium (min.) - .50%
Manganese (min.) - 1800 ppm
Copper (min.) - 500 ppm
Copper (max.) - 505 ppm
Cobalt (min.) - 18 ppm
Iodine (min.) - 125 ppm
Selenium (min.) - 20 ppm
Selenium (max.) - 20.5 ppm
Zinc (min.) - 19.50 ppm
Vitamin A (min.) - 60,000 IU/lb
Vitamin D (min.) - 15,000 IU/lb
Vitamin E (min.) - 100 IU/LB

Another question for you, do you think it would be in the interest of elminating things, to dose them with the Vit. E/Selenium Gel? Or at this point, would that be unnecessary? I know they can get toxic posioning to things like that, that are overdosed, so didn't want to put them in any danger of that.

Thanks so much!

Sharon
I have reread your postings about a dozen times now, trying to figure this out.
Anemia will cause them to become weak, as you describe and will cause their body temp to go lower. I still feel like you need to treat the anemia and injectable pig iron works ALOT faster than Red Cell. I would do this at 1cc per 50 pounds for three days.
But we have to fix the problem for the anemia in the first place. The cocci would cause anemia as will tapeworms. You can use the Safeguard for Tapeworms, but remember to dose it four times the animals bodyweight and do it for three days in a row.
As a side note, I was talking with some sheep people at SAFF this weekend, and they were describing the same issues with the sheep that the goat people had been having and they had also narrowed it down to tapeworms. After some discussion, we all decided that it has to be due to this drought.
You can give them the selenium paste, but like you said in one post, you had given it and it didn't seem to help. I really do feel like the weakness is coming from the anemia verus a selenium deficincy.

Hey!
Another update, it's good and then not good (but not bad bad either).

We took a fecal to our other vet(Dr. S). He's a small animal vet(used to be a traveling large animal vet). We try using Dr. M (our large animal vet), for all of our goat needs,etc. since it's more "his" job, it's just harder to trust what he says. The only thing is Dr. S is so good, that he doesn't have alot of time to spare, so we can only see him sometimes. Regardless, Dr. S said they are worm free. Nothing wrong.
Now, about the not good but not bad news.
We have Oddball,Nova, Chrissy and Macho in the basement now. Nova has been down here since last Thursday. Chrissy and Oddball were down here Thursday, but we're able to go back out Friday once it warmed up. They seemed to do fine out Friday night, and did fine Saturday and Sunday. This morning Oddball was shivering and balled up (Temp was 94.1), Chrissy was just baaing alot and her temp was 97.4 and Macho was 95.1, and he was baaing alot. All three as of tonight are doing fine and temps are back up to about normal. They are inside and are doing good. Still eating, and acting overall fine. A little weak, but not anything to major. Soooooo........after what you've said, and since they are worm free, we're going to do the Pig Iron. It maybe they are just anemic from the worms that may've passed through when we did the Ivomec Plus. May not, but could be I guess. We're going to try and order the pig iron, since we can't find any around here. We're going to give Red Cell until we get the PI.
Does this need to be given IM or SQ? I know for pigs it says IM.

Thanks so much for sticking with us and trying to figure this all out!
I certainly appreciate it. :)

You give it SQ, but check their eyelids before you give it. The Red cell may have done the trick.

Alrighty, thank you so much!
We're going to give this only to the weaker ones for now, since no one else is having any problems. Everybody else seems to be fine now, so we'll see. We'll definately check their eyelids beforehand as well.

Thanks again so much!
Sharon